The Unloved Lover; The Unloving Loved - March 3rd, 2008

Luke has been added to the conversation.

((THE VIRGINAL BRIDE)) has left the conversation.

Matt has been added to the conversation.

Melanie has been added to the conversation.

James Ashley Crewe says (15:00):
Hi all

Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings has been added to the conversation.

((THE VIRGINAL BRIDE)) has been added to the conversation.

James Ashley Crewe says (15:00):
Welcome to Ecrit
Luke says (15:00):
afternoon
Melanie says (15:00):
good afternoon
Matt says (15:00):
afternoon
Matt says (15:01):
abi sends her apologies
((THE VIRGINAL BRIDE)) says (15:01):
hi
James Ashley Crewe says (15:01):
thanks matt
James Ashley Crewe says (15:01):
how are we all?
Melanie says (15:01):
good thanx
Matt says (15:01):
great thank you
Melanie says (15:02):
ive just put on my first buffet! so proud of myself
Melanie says (15:02):
lol
James Ashley Crewe says (15:02):
lovely
James Ashley Crewe says (15:02):
Today I'd like to talk about the unloved lover; its an unrequited love, but without some of the connotations of that tag; its not a secret.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:02):
Its a love everybody knows, a love in the open. Both the subject and the object are aware, and yet the subject is rejected. We start from this position of transparent rejection.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:02):
let's have a look at the first video!
James Ashley Crewe says (15:02):



Sarah-Kate has been added to the conversation.

Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:03):
hi
Melanie says (15:03):
hi SK
James Ashley Crewe says (15:03):
hi darren, hi Sarah Kate
James Ashley Crewe says (15:03):
we are watching the first video
Sarah-Kate says (15:03):
hey guys
Sarah-Kate says (15:03):
and gal
((THE VIRGINAL BRIDE)) says (15:03):
gals
Sarah-Kate says (15:03):
the one you sent in the email?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:03):


James Ashley Crewe says (15:04):
Brenda Holloway knows the man she loves does not love her, and yet she still comforts him in his own romantic hardship, even offering to help him win his girl back. She offers her shoulder to cry on; her love is such that she will forgo her own happiness and comfort just to be of use to him.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:04):
She becomes utterly his, aggressively negligent of her own welfare, bordering on a kind of emotional asceticism. She is available for him, almost grotesquely so. She inhabits an area between empathy and a subservience that verges on the repulsive
James Ashley Crewe says (15:04):
When do we go too far for the one we love? By offering too much, can we become repulsive?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:05):
What do we think about this?
Sarah-Kate says (15:05):
we do become repulsive, have on many of occasions.lol
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:05):
it depends if it is the same circumstances...
Sarah-Kate says (15:05):
butsomethin just takes over us
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:05):
whether the same kind of love is returned
James Ashley Crewe says (15:05):
can you describe it further SArah Kate, if you don't mind?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:06):
Well, Brenda says that she knows his love is not for her
Matt says (15:06):
is she not offering her shoulder, offering help, a bridge for his own relationship because in some aspects she shares his pain, shares his relationship with the other.
Luke says (15:06):
can the same kind of love be returned
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:06):
why does brenda nother then?
Sarah-Kate says (15:06):
well by making yourself so obviously desperate for another person, is unfortunatly somewhat repulsive
Luke says (15:06):
does each person love each other equally
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:06):
is it not just wasted energy?
Matt says (15:06):
i waste a lot of energy, it's all good
James Ashley Crewe says (15:07):
it's a gesture which won't satisfy her
Luke says (15:07):
true desperation is not atractive
Sarah-Kate says (15:07):
it seems to be the crueler someone was the more attention and effort i made
Matt says (15:07):
yeah, look at luke!
James Ashley Crewe says (15:07):
she won't get what she wants from him, but she's willing to get what she can, even if it hurts her
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:07):
scraps
Luke says (15:08):

Matt says (15:08):
is she not sharing his love though? even if she is not the object of his love?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:08):
She loves vicariously through him, maybe, incorprates his satisfaction into hers
Sarah-Kate says (15:09):
if you can thik about nothing but this one person, then the littlest thing will satify you. may it be that you think your helping the other, or just this eeling that they do want you around
Matt says (15:09):
we all have those conversations where one hears what the other is experiencing. We hear about their pain, their longing, where does the bystander come into the relationship?
Sarah-Kate says (15:10):
the bystander can empathise because they feel the same
Luke says (15:10):
its nice to think someone wants you around though frustrating that its not for the same reasons you do
James Ashley Crewe says (15:10):
she offeres comfort, she is a bystander, but she's not neutral - the man she addresses knows she loves him - can we accept this kind fo comfort from someone we know wants something from us?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:10):
*of
Matt says (15:11):
what are his motives?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:11):
we can't know - the song only comes from the unloved one
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:11):
i guess if you are that involved...you will take whatever you can get
James Ashley Crewe says (15:11):
but maybe we can theorise
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:11):
anything at all
Matt says (15:11):
does he know he hurts her by comforting himself on her shoulder? even if she offers
Sarah-Kate says (15:11):
we can and we do because we are selfish. i am selfish. i have accepted comfort from someone who i knew i shouldnt have
Sarah-Kate says (15:11):
of course he does
Matt says (15:12):
that evil bastard
Sarah-Kate says (15:12):
he is too envolved in his feelings
Sarah-Kate says (15:12):
lol
James Ashley Crewe says (15:13):
it becomes a different exchange, one based on what we can get - the unloved one gets the contact from her love object she can, even if it hurts her; the unloving one gets the comfort he can from her, even if he knows he is hurting her, or will hurt her
Matt says (15:13):
there is nothing rational about love
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:13):
how will he hurt her further if she is fully aware of her own needs and actions?
Matt says (15:13):
its violent, chaotic, especially when it isn't returned. Even if the love is shared, it doesn't always have to be returned
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:13):
surely she is also responsible for hurting herself?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:14):
of course
Sarah-Kate says (15:14):
because she still has that little lingering hope
James Ashley Crewe says (15:14):
she makes herself obscenely available, obscenely vulnerable
Matt says (15:14):
there is always a balance, even if both subjects are involves, they regulate each others desires, they disappint
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:14):
its self indulgence at its best
Sarah-Kate says (15:14):
the one she sees in films were the object of her love realises right at the nd that she is infact what he wants
Sarah-Kate says (15:14):
but really when does this ever happen in real life
Luke says (15:14):
never alas
Matt says (15:14):
i'm obscenely available, but i have a TV, so i find other ways to deal with it
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:15):
ha
James Ashley Crewe says (15:15):
lets step it along
James Ashley Crewe says (15:15):

James Ashley Crewe says (15:15):
Bettye Lavette asks for mercy from her former lover. She asks that he let her down easy, that he soften the blow of his parting by showing her some kindness. The unloved lover is pathetic, a joke, laying themselves down before someone who doesn't want them, in front of everybody, a humiliating position. However, there is power in this position too.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:15):
By making a demand, like Bettye does, demanding mercy, an unloved lover draws their love object into the arena of exchange, a place where the object is lacking. They cannot return the love presented to them, they cannot meet the demand. Therefore, they are exposed as missing something, possessing a flaw.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:16):
In the utter passivity of unloved loving there is also a power, and an aggression, a desire to draw the object into the realm of humiliation and lack as well.

James Ashley Crewe says (15:16):
an unloved lover is not only hurting herself in her love, but attempting to hurt him as well
Sarah-Kate says (15:17):
they also recieve the sympathy of others, they are hurt one, and in this become both pathetic but potentially stronger
Matt says (15:18):
but there is no letting down easily, she submits to him.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:18):
how do you mean?

Melanie is already in this conversation.

Matt says (15:19):
well it is this demand, but a demand will always lead to more demands, it will never be fulfilled
Sarah-Kate says (15:19):
but by asking she is letting him know thatshe is aware that he no longer loves him, so in a way sheis letting herself down easyerly
Luke says (15:20):
true
Matt says (15:20):
if he was to let her down easily, to not walk away, to not turn his back; we are left with nothing, a lie perhaps
James Ashley Crewe says (15:20):
her demands will never end and he can't fulfil them
Sarah-Kate says (15:20):
prolonging the inevitable

Melanie is already in this conversation.

Matt says (15:20):
which is why he needs to turn his back
Matt says (15:20):
sever the investment

Melanie has left the conversation.

Melanie has been added to the conversation.

Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:21):
to refuse contact then?
Matt says (15:21):
if there is always some aspect of exchange occuring, a giving, then more will be sought
James Ashley Crewe says (15:21):
the appetite is never sated
Matt says (15:21):
'lets just be friends' - does that work? or an i too stubborn
Sarah-Kate says (15:22):
too stubborn
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:22):
toooooo
Luke says (15:22):
you can never go back to being friends
CARRIE says (15:22):
you can
Sarah-Kate says (15:22):
never?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:22):
what do we feel about the idea that this is aggressive, that this demand for more is an attempt to hurt the one who won't love us?
Luke says (15:22):
no thems the rules
Melanie says (15:22):
it depends on the people involved
CARRIE says (15:22):
i like aggression, it cures most things
Matt says (15:22):
that unloving bastard
CARRIE says (15:22):
or helps at least
James Ashley Crewe says (15:23):
it makes things easier - pain is more managable if we can bring someone down with us
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:23):
i dont think it is always aggressive
Matt says (15:23):
there is always an aspect of aggressivity, how can one be fragmented and not find react
Melanie says (15:23):
we hate to suffer alone
Melanie says (15:24):
even if it means making someone else suffer alongside us
James Ashley Crewe says (15:24):
it could be a punishment as well
Matt says (15:24):
my - we're all quite scary, no one piss you guys off
Sarah-Kate says (15:24):
it has to be at a certain point. not recieving makes you bitter
CARRIE says (15:24):
they should suffer for making us suffer i say
Melanie says (15:24):
an eye for an eye
Melanie says (15:24):
etc
Matt says (15:24):
mels about to get her pitchfork out i think
Sarah-Kate says (15:24):
and so it goes on in a vicious circle of bringong each other down
Melanie says (15:24):
but then you get into revenge territory
Melanie says (15:24):
and it gets scary
Luke says (15:24):
i very rarely vent my anggression
Melanie says (15:25):
matt - lol
Melanie says (15:25):
im quite placid really
James Ashley Crewe says (15:25):
but its a passive revenge - i am utterly at your desposable, i am utterly weak in front of you
Luke says (15:25):
not sure if that is because i choose not to or i just cant
James Ashley Crewe says (15:25):
but your ggresion will come out other places
Melanie says (15:25):
i find it quite difficult to be aggressive towards people
Luke says (15:25):
what kind of places?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:25):
(crit group cough cough)
Melanie says (15:26):
haha
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:26):
?
Sarah-Kate says (15:26):
i find it too easy, if the right button is pushed
Luke says (15:26):
ha ha ahh well
Luke says (15:26):
you kick them
Sarah-Kate says (15:26):
lol thats true
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:26):
i think acohol fuels this aggression to come out
James Ashley Crewe says (15:26):
you say you can't vent your aggression - where does this aggression come from?
Sarah-Kate says (15:26):
most definatly.
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:26):
when you realise you are hitting a brick wall
Luke says (15:27):
lots of places really
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:27):
going no-where
James Ashley Crewe says (15:27):
Sexual frustration?
Luke says (15:27):
i find alcohol more of a depressant
Melanie says (15:27):
youre an angry young man, luke
Sarah-Kate says (15:27):
it comes from our unconscious a little, our vunerable
Matt says (15:27):
i think it becomes an aggression towards the self
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:27):
i think it comes from a lack of feeling safe
Luke says (15:27):
ha ha you want a slap
Melanie says (15:28):
we need a channel for our aggression
Matt says (15:28):
the image of the loved object has left, we are no longer percieved as lovable. the ideal ego has failed
Melanie says (15:28):
luke - well have less of that
Luke says (15:28):
yes miss
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:28):
a reminder that this perfect possibility of happiness was just a mirage
James Ashley Crewe says (15:28):
so aggression can come from frustration, from a failure as a loved object
Melanie says (15:28):
we need a channel for our aggression, and the most lkely outlet is the person/persons who are making us feel frustrated
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:28):
one that will probably repeat
James Ashley Crewe says (15:29):
even if it's an unconcious aggression we let out upon them
Luke says (15:29):
you lose your mojo lol for want of a better word
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:29):
mojo
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:29):
i like it luke
James Ashley Crewe says (15:29):
thats more of a castration anxiety i would have said!
Matt says (15:30):
we can poke fun at lukes mojo all day
Melanie says (15:30):
someone else was watching austin powers the other night, lol
Sarah-Kate says (15:30):
lol i was thinking the same
Matt says (15:30):
lol
James Ashley Crewe says (15:30):
lol lol lol
Luke says (15:30):
thats the last time you poke my mojo matt
James Ashley Crewe says (15:30):
alright
Melanie says (15:30):
rotflmao
Luke says (15:30):
no i missed it
James Ashley Crewe says (15:30):
Well let's move on
Melanie says (15:30):
yes, lets
Luke says (15:30):
sorry
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:30):
brb
Sarah-Kate says (15:30):
next vid?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:31):
not discplinging you
James Ashley Crewe says (15:31):
yes
James Ashley Crewe says (15:31):
(No longer available)
(0.00 – 1.15)


James Ashley Crewe says (15:31):
We've used examples from the unloved lovers, Let us put ourselves in the opposite position: the unloving lover.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:31):
In Superbad, Seth pursues Jules throughout the film, convinced that he will at least get a handjob from her. When the moment comes, as he perceives it, he is rejected. Jules is shocked, but she tries to ameliorate the situation, she tries to let Seth down easy. He is drunk and doesn't take the hint, he digs deeper.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:32):
She says 'not right now', he replies 'there's no other time'; if not now, then when? It dawns on him that the answer is never. Seth demands a rejection from Jules, the rejection is forced out of her by his behaviour.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:32):
What can she do? How do we deal with such an offer, an offer we don't want to accept?
Luke says (15:33):
an outright rejection is always prefered over not knowing
Sarah-Kate says (15:33):
badly
James Ashley Crewe says (15:33):
is it?
Luke says (15:34):
i would say so then there is something to move on from otherwise you find yourself in limbo wondering when will be the right time
Sarah-Kate says (15:34):
people say that an outright rejection is what they want, but whatthey reslly want is too prolong the rejection, to obtain hope
Melanie says (15:34):
if the object of affection rejects you, whre than can you direct your unrequited feelings and frustrations?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:34):
i have often been in this position - you want to know, but when you don't know, hope remains, which is tantalising
Melanie says (15:34):
like SK said, we need the feeling of hope
Matt says (15:34):
was this not marcel mauss 'the gift' he brought the beer, he is the provider and she is in his debt? plus alcohol is there to impair her judgement
Luke says (15:34):
hope is painful i would rather deal with rejection
Matt says (15:34):
to make her like him
Sarah-Kate says (15:34):
but we lingr in our own fault. we know we have been rejected but we choose to hang on
Matt says (15:34):
only he falls victim to his own plan
Melanie says (15:36):
som people may feel the need to hang on to an unloving lover because it gives them hope that maybe, one day, they will become loved
James Ashley Crewe says (15:36):
he presumes however that she will need to be drunk to get with him
James Ashley Crewe says (15:36):
he already knows it's doomed in a way
Melanie says (15:36):
its like setting a trap for her
Matt says (15:36):
he knows the love will not be returned
James Ashley Crewe says (15:37):
until it is said plainly (and even then not necessiarly) there is the possibilitiy, the potentail for something to emerge
Melanie says (15:37):
indeed
Matt says (15:37):
he spent his childhood drawing the phalus, his own impotence. He made the drawings powerful, bold, mr T
James Ashley Crewe says (15:38):
he has already acknowledged his failure before he has begun
Matt says (15:38):
the whole film was about his failures
Melanie says (15:39):
what film is that again?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:39):
Superbad
Sarah-Kate says (15:39):
superbad
Melanie says (15:39):
cool
Sarah-Kate says (15:39):
its very funny
Sarah-Kate says (15:40):
why do we pursue or own failure
James Ashley Crewe says (15:40):
let's go back to signs - have we all expereince signals from a love object?
Melanie says (15:40):
because there may be a grain of hope?
Sarah-Kate says (15:40):
do we just enjoy being depressed, being the weak, the needy lol]
James Ashley Crewe says (15:40):
perhaps
Sarah-Kate says (15:40):
i know
Sarah-Kate says (15:41):
stupidity
James Ashley Crewe says (15:41):
perhaps utter weakness, utter futility offers it's own position of power
James Ashley Crewe says (15:41):
you start off exhausted, emptied, so nothing more is at stake
Melanie says (15:41):
things can only get better, sort of thing
Sarah-Kate says (15:42):
things can only get betttttter ...
Melanie says (15:42):
lol
James Ashley Crewe says (15:42):
or maybe that any blow you land can not be returned
Sarah-Kate says (15:42):
lol yea mel
Sarah-Kate says (15:42):
how so?
Matt says (15:42):
you're always going to be subject to the other
Luke says (15:42):
are there really signs or do we just missinturpet things through desperation
Melanie says (15:43):
i think the latter
James Ashley Crewe says (15:43):
you are already nothing, already humiliated, already ridiculous - from here you are safe
Luke says (15:43):
ahh crap lol
Matt says (15:43):
i wouldn't always call it desperation
James Ashley Crewe says (15:43):
i agree - we read logic into things that is not necessarily there
Sarah-Kate says (15:43):
true
Melanie says (15:43):
hope, again?
Melanie says (15:43):
waiting to be thrown a bone
Sarah-Kate says (15:44):
but also when n that posision of power, of knowing someone really wants you, it is easy to give small hope
James Ashley Crewe says (15:44):
When i love a boy, as i do, i interpret his gestures as significant when they are probably not
Sarah-Kate says (15:44):
unintentionally
James Ashley Crewe says (15:44):
a certain look that lasts too long, a touch on my waist, an invitation - these all become charged with importance
Melanie says (15:44):
i do that too
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:44):
isnt there some enjoyment out of that?
Melanie says (15:44):
im champion at reading into things too much
James Ashley Crewe says (15:44):
definately
Melanie says (15:45):
a kind of morbid enjoyment
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:45):
its the good times i think
James Ashley Crewe says (15:45):
this si why we don't abandon a love we know is not goin to come to fruition
Melanie says (15:45):
a nice form of self-torture
Matt says (15:45):
it's a painful temporary enjoyment
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:45):
when things are fresh
James Ashley Crewe says (15:45):
the joy of loving is enough to keep us going, albeit in a volatile state
Matt says (15:45):
a taster of what the feeling of love could be
Matt says (15:45):
but it soon becomes anxiety, becomes too real
James Ashley Crewe says (15:45):
Let's extend this further, this blindness to truth
James Ashley Crewe says (15:45):
as it may or may not be
James Ashley Crewe says (15:46):



Matt says (15:46):
i love this video
James Ashley Crewe says (15:46):
In Wayne's World, Wayne's ex-girlfriend Stacy is a psycho hose beast. She is made a lunatic by love; she doesn't see the truth, she continues to treat Wayne as if they were still together. She behaves farcically, extremely, offering gifts, offering promiscuity, endangering herself.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:46):
He rejects her, but she keeps coming, oblivious to it.
James Ashley Crewe says (15:46):
When has someone gone too far?
Matt says (15:46):
what does the gunrack mean?
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:46):
she buys him a gun rack
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:46):

Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:46):
now thats love
James Ashley Crewe says (15:46):
How far does hospitality towards our unloved lover stretch?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:47):
When have they done too much, what do they have to do to earn cruelty?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:47):
How do we reach our limit?



Sarah-Kate has left the conversation.

Matt says (15:47):
that the once loved object becomes cancerous?! we cut it off, leave, but it keeps coming back, it becomes overly interested in us
Matt says (15:48):
the object that seeks us is no longer desired, because it involves no chase?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:48):
again she is grotesquely available
Luke says (15:49):
you know you will eventually reach this point and the longing for someone will end
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:49):
sorry guys and gals but im gonna have to go now...
Melanie says (15:49):
the most telling thing in the last clip is stacys necklace
James Ashley Crewe says (15:49):
bye Darren, thanks for attending
Luke says (15:49):
but you do not remember what it was that made you reach this point before
James Ashley Crewe says (15:49):
go on mel...
Luke says (15:49):
and how long it will take to reach it again
James Ashley Crewe says (15:50):
Luke - it is unimaginable
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:50):
no worries...Art in the Pub tommorow people...better get some sleep
Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings says (15:50):
ciao x
Melanie says (15:50):
see you tomorrow
Matt says (15:50):
brb
Melanie says (15:51):
stacy wears waynes name because she lives for him
Melanie says (15:51):
she is in effect bound to him
Luke says (15:51):
i know it will always come but like you say i cant imagin what it will be like when it does
James Ashley Crewe says (15:51):
i didn't realise that was her necklace
Melanie says (15:51):
he tries to shake her off but shes having none of it
James Ashley Crewe says (15:51):
she has branded herself as his property
James Ashley Crewe says (15:52):
what can he do?
Melanie says (15:52):
its a symbol of her attachment to him
Melanie says (15:52):
theres nothing he can do, really
James Ashley Crewe says (15:52):
i ma interested in this question of how far is too far? How long do we humour someone who loves us, and when do they ask too much?
Luke says (15:52):
we allways want the thing we are least likely to get
Melanie says (15:52):
he's stuck with her because, for her, there is still hope that the unloving lover may yet show some love
Luke says (15:53):
it makes it all that more appealing
James Ashley Crewe says (15:53):
because we do not risk an actual encounter with it - it can remain imagined, an ideal
James Ashley Crewe says (15:53):
it does not run the risk of being exposed as lacking

Darren Christopher Dryden Chouings has left the conversation.

James Ashley Crewe says (15:54):
when do you think a person has gone too far in the demands they make of someone who doesn't love them?
James Ashley Crewe says (15:54):
when do their actions become violations?
CARRIE says (15:55):
when they get physical
Melanie says (15:55):
id say that too
Melanie says (15:55):
but theres other things too
James Ashley Crewe says (15:55):
what kind of physicality - sexual or violent, flirtatious, innapropriate?
CARRIE says (15:55):
any kind
Melanie says (15:56):
it depends. i think any of those could be
CARRIE says (15:56):
but also when they become emotionally demanding
James Ashley Crewe says (15:56):
what kind of demand might this be?
CARRIE says (15:56):
demanding attention
CARRIE says (15:56):
and love and time
CARRIE says (15:56):
i guess
James Ashley Crewe says (15:57):
so what do we do when they demand too much?
Matt says (15:57):
sarah-kate can't back in the room, so she sends her apologies
CARRIE says (15:57):
ease it off
Melanie says (15:57):
try and let them down gently
James Ashley Crewe says (15:57):
thnaks matt
Melanie says (15:58):
easer said than done, tho
James Ashley Crewe says (15:58):
yes
CARRIE says (15:58):
tell them
Melanie says (15:58):
because if this person is so involved with you, then they prob wont take no ofr an answer
CARRIE says (15:58):
ell em straight
Melanie says (15:58):
denial and all that
James Ashley Crewe says (15:59):
but maybe this is (partly) what their entire pursuit is after - their violations and the liberties they take are a demand for you to tell them 'NO', tell them straight, kill the love
CARRIE says (15:59):
yeah because they wanna know
CARRIE says (15:59):
fo sho
Matt says (16:00):
yes, but the very denial for love may be the true demand
Melanie says (16:00):
a longing for chastisement
Melanie says (16:00):
a demand for attention from the loved one, even if its negative attention
Luke says (16:00):
sorry people got distracted by ebay
Matt says (16:01):
i'm thinking of the TV series house
James Ashley Crewe says (16:01):
go on
Matt says (16:01):
House, the main doctor finds one of his employees is in love with him, the series continues with him rejecting her, mocking her as he always does
Matt says (16:02):
in a later episode he makes a statement, he asks her out for dinner. She cannot accept his offer.
Matt says (16:03):
his offer was intentional, he was not serious about it, merely wanted to point out she was not really interested in him as a person, but as a condition
James Ashley Crewe says (16:03):
transference love perhaps
Melanie says (16:03):
so she wasnt in love with him, but she was in love with his negative attitude towards her?
Matt says (16:04):
she fell in love with his misery, she wanted to help him, love him. When he pretended to be fine, be happy, cured, her feelings for him were lost
Matt says (16:04):
when the offer was returned to her she could not accept
Matt says (16:04):
because the very thing she sought in him was his denial
Melanie says (16:05):
masochism, in a way
Matt says (16:05):
but is the true fantasmatic point of desire the lure
Matt says (16:05):
when it becomes real it almost becomes too much
Matt says (16:06):
there is always a level of fantasy, rejection allows fantasy to be maintained
James Ashley Crewe says (16:06):
in a 'real' expereicne, one where love is returned, the fantasy risks coming apart
Matt says (16:06):
it barrs the goal. The last level before one reaches an aim desire steps in to protect the person, stop them falling
Melanie says (16:06):
we revel in our fantasy creations
CARRIE says (16:06):
the real thing's always gonna be a disappointment
Matt says (16:07):
the real thing is still dull
James Ashley Crewe says (16:07):
so perhaps we make demands of those we love, outrageous cruel demands, because we can ensure that they will be kept distant, unable to fulfil them, and so our fantasy of them can continue
Matt says (16:07):
even with the loved object, during sex etc, zizek says that there is always on some level a fantasmatic point. we have to still return to fantasy even in the real situation to maintain it
Melanie says (16:07):
perhaps indeed
Melanie says (16:08):
the real thing is never as good as the fantasy
James Ashley Crewe says (16:09):
Barthes says in A Lover's Discourse:
James Ashley Crewe says (16:09):
In the other's perfect and 'embalmed' figure... I perceive suddenly a speck of corruption. This speck is a tiny one: a gesture, a word, an object, a garment, something unexpected which appears (which dawns) from a region I had never even suspected, and suddenly attaches the loved object to a commonplace world. Could the other be vulgar, whose elegance and originality I had so religiously hymned?
James Ashley Crewe says (16:09):
Here is a gesture by which is revealed a being of another race. I am flabbergasted: I hear a counter-rhythm: something like a syncope in the lovely phrase of the loved being, the noise of a rip in the smooth envelope of the Image
Matt says (16:09):
the real thing is quite disturbing, it's too real. Why would anyone want to put that in their mouth or that in there? fantasy is brought in to censor, to allow enjoyment
Melanie says (16:10):
precisely
Melanie says (16:10):
why would i want a real man? they snore and fart in bed
James Ashley Crewe says (16:10):
the position of being unloved allows to avoid the real thing, the upset it causes in our enjoyment of a fantasy
Matt says (16:11):
because a real man allows you to project fantasys, you graft them on him. He is subject to your fantasies and vice versa
Matt says (16:12):
the unloved is a renewal almost
Matt says (16:12):
I'm Dr Who, i have regenerated and i'm quite a different person, the unloved subject
James Ashley Crewe says (16:13):
with a struture of unfulfilable demands we can keep the real man away from us, even as we keep him close enough to project our love onto him
Matt says (16:13):
it was only afterwards, on reflection that i found myself realising 'i never liked that anyway, why am i mourning it? It was her who gained enjoyment out of that, i shared in something else, alien to my own interests'
Matt says (16:14):
i'll just project my fantasies on strangers, the ones without transference, i create them...why should they shatter my fantasies by me getting to know them
Matt says (16:15):
wow, i'm already seeing a better life for myself
James Ashley Crewe says (16:15):
haha
James Ashley Crewe says (16:15):
on that note
James Ashley Crewe says (16:15):
what a wonderful melodious note
James Ashley Crewe says (16:15):
let's bring Ecrit to an end
James Ashley Crewe says (16:15):
My exhibition goes up tomorrow
James Ashley Crewe says (16:16):
Thank you all for attending
Matt says (16:16):
thank uyou for such a wonderful ecrit jamie!
Melanie says (16:16):
thanks for being a good host!
James Ashley Crewe says (16:16):
naturlich
Luke says (16:16):
thanks
Melanie says (16:16):
you dont disappoint
James Ashley Crewe says (16:17):
ah thank you
James Ashley Crewe says (16:17):
pity some people couldn't be here, but nevermind
Matt says (16:17):
jamie hasn't let us down carefully though
Luke says (16:17):
ha ha
Matt says (16:17):
who is hosting next week?
Melanie says (16:17):
me
James Ashley Crewe says (16:17):
lovely
CARRIE says (16:17):
matt
CARRIE says (16:18):
bring me some food
Melanie says (16:18):
hope i get my msn working before then, lol
James Ashley Crewe says (16:18):
are there any drinks tonight?
CARRIE says (16:18):
not for me
Luke says (16:18):
dont think al be coming
Melanie says (16:18):
not for me...im ensconed within the wilds of rotherham today
Melanie says (16:18):
*ensconced
CARRIE says (16:18):
at one point next week we should have a social
Matt says (16:18):
i think we shal save it for art in the pub tomorrow
James Ashley Crewe says (16:18):
wow, that's a no then
CARRIE says (16:18):
in the studio or at someone's house
James Ashley Crewe says (16:19):
we need another cocktail party
CARRIE says (16:19):
with finger food
CARRIE says (16:19):
NO
CARRIE says (16:19):
finger food!!!
James Ashley Crewe says (16:19):
haha finger food an cocktails go together like ham and eggs baby
Melanie says (16:19):
hehe
CARRIE says (16:19):
egg babies
James Ashley Crewe says (16:19):
Alright, well thank you again, and i'll see you tomorrow
James Ashley Crewe says (16:19):
bye my dears
Melanie says (16:19):
see you tomorrow
Melanie says (16:19):
hope all goes well for the exhibition hanging
CARRIE says (16:20):
hope the hanging goes well
CARRIE says (16:20):
ha
CARRIE says (16:20):
love it
Luke says (16:20):
cya guys
Melanie says (16:20):
lol

Luke has left the conversation.

James Ashley Crewe says (16:20):
thanks - a reminder that the studio will be closed till 12
James Ashley Crewe says (16:20):
and toodle pip
Melanie says (16:20):
no probs
Matt says (16:21):
goodbye all
Melanie says (16:21):
see you all tomorrow
Melanie says (16:21):
adios amigos
CARRIE says (16:21):
bye x

CARRIE has left the conversation.

Melanie says (16:21):
vaya con dios
Melanie says (16:21):
x

Melanie has left the conversation.